Interview with Ven. Bhikshu Tenzin Sherab

Interview with Ven. Bhikshu Tenzin Sherab
Library of Tibetan Works and Archives (LTWA),
Dharamsala, Himachal Pradesh, INDIA
June 14, 2002

(NB: This interview took place while I was still quite new to living in India, in 2002, and is an interesting look into my thoughts and feelings at that time. The interviewer was researching for her PhD thesis on monasticism in various faiths.)

[Tape 1]

Okay, so, here we are. You can just start off by introducing yourself. You can just say your name, the tradition that you're with...

And then you're going to lead me from there?

And then I'll lead you from there, but you can jump in at any time.

My name is Tenzin Sherab, and I'm from Canada originally, and now I live in Dharamsala, India. I became a monk when I was twenty-one, and now I'm thirty, and I practiced in Toronto, in Canada, for almost eight years before I came to India to study Tibetan. My intention is to study the texts directly in the Tibetan language, a language which holds the complete teachings of the Buddha from the Sanskrit texts and the commentaries by Indian and Tibetan scholar-monks. That's something that I wanted to do right from the beginning of my wishing to become a monk – study the scriptures. So, that's a little bit to start.

So nine years ago you became a monk when you were twenty one. And how did you become involved? You were ordained as a Tibetan Buddhist monk from the beginning?

Right. Yeah, there's three levels of ordination... yeah, and I am a Tibetan Buddhist monk. I didn't mention that and you asked for it, so... I first, I started learning about Buddhism in a scholarly way in university, and...

Were you studying religion? Was that your major?

Yeah mostly religion, psychology, and yeah religion, mostly Asian religions – I was interested in Taoism and Hinduism and Buddhism. But Buddhism is always my love, in terms of Asian religions. I had met somebody when I was having big troubles, with drugs particularly, and he had gotten over his drug troubles by practicing breathing meditation. So he taught me breathing meditation. And that was when it started. I thought, wow this comes from the Buddha? This comes from teachings of the Buddha? So I became instantly fascinated and I wanted to learn as much as I could. So, my only opportunity to do that was to read and also to take courses in university.

And then… it wasn't always Tibetan Buddhism. Yeah, I sort of had a… it was a long distance affair at first, because I was fascinated by the Tibetan culture. Because I knew it was a wholly religious life that they were leading --I guess in traditional Tibet. I was a bit naïve, too: I thought China was a pure land, I thought Tibet was still the pure land, and India must be also a pure land. But in my ignorance I at least had an inkling that there was something that had happened, because there wasn't much Buddhism in India. So, I had these ideas of going somewhere in Asia to practice the Dharma. I was convinced I could not do it in Toronto, because it seemed… well, it was a place I wanted to get away from, but also it seemed like a very materialistic environment to be in, and I wanted to change that with myself. I couldn't see how I could do that in Toronto. So Thailand became quite a possibility…to go to Thailand. Because I heard there were westerners who were practicing the Dharma there. Then I tried to work it so that I could continue my studies, and<>go to Asia, and go to a monastery all in one. So I thought of doing a study abroad – go to China or go to India, to study. Anyway, these were just fantasies. None of them actually panned out.

I think the clincher was I knew I needed to find a community and a teacher, and I would try to find it in Toronto, and I did. I was sort of hopping. I went to a Korean Zen monastery, and I went to a Chinese temple/monastery. I feel a connection with these places but it wasn't really like, "Come on in and join us!" Or at least I didn't have that karma to be part of these communities. One of my professors told me to meet another professor who was actually a real, live Buddhist. I had never met "a real, live Buddhist" before, and he told me that I should speak to this westerner, who was a nun – an older lady, who was also a psychotherapist – because she knows the dharma, she speaks the [english] language, she knows the [western] culture I think I went that day or soon after, quite late at night – like 10:30 at night. I sort of barged in, and said "Hi!" And when I met her I was convinced that she was my teacher, and that she was someone who I wanted to be with and follow, because I needed a role model. I needed someone who I could live with in a monastic environment. Even now I'm surprised that I was able to do what I did in Toronto for so long, because I was sure I couldn't do it. I remember watching this movie, "The Last Emperor," [and at that time I was longing to be in Asia, and here was this Emperor in Asia who longed to be in the west! I thought he was so fortunate, but couldn't see it…and that was my situation. Fortunate to establish a Dharma connection without even leaving my home town.]

[You were sure you couldn't do it…] being a monastic, you mean? Or just practicing?

Practicing, being a monastic… particularly being a monastic in Toronto. It was, like, hard to fathom.

So what point, just to get a sense of the timeline, did you go from introduction, like through the breathing meditation – that was your introduction to Buddhism, to this time in Toronto when you [met this nun]?

That was in 1990, so I was eighteen. Then it took a couple years of fiddling around with different types of meditation, and also some classes in school on Buddhism. Actually I was studying many religions at the same time, even if I wasn't doing it in school. Because I love religion in general, and I can see how it benefits so many people. And it has benefited me, too. The tradition I came from was Judaism, and I definitely benefited from it. But in the community and cultural aspect, I couldn't see how I could break through and get into it deeper. Again, I didn't have the karma. It is possible to do that, now I know, but it didn't come up that way, and it didn't turn out that way. So, it's funny that now I can see what was always available to me before; I can see that now, as a Buddhist, which again I couldn't see when I was in the swill of it. Because I thought -- with my upbringing – that the family context was representative of Judaism. Or with any religion… that it is the family unit that represents the religious way of life. And, it wasn't for me, because there was no spirituality in everyday life, it was just power struggles and harming each other in the guise of caring. So I thought, this can't be… this can't be it.

So for a while I rejected my original tradition, which was harmful [for me to do], but that was the best I could do at the time. His Holiness the Dalai Lama always says, 'Please, if you're going to switch, or if you're going to even just investigate other religions, please don't deprecate or in any way feel negative towards your original tradition, because, it's so harmful.' I know I damaged my own mind, and it really slowed me down. It just made me more confused. But also I hurt my whole family, each one, by my negativity towards Judaism, which was unfounded. I thought that in order to "spring", in order to jump from one tradition to another, I thought in a way that I had to be negative. I had no teacher: [I was] just a strung-out, crazy hippie trying to find a way to develop some peace of mind.

So [much happened] during these two years, between my first introduction to breathing meditation and also to the Buddhadharma… [I remember the person who taught me breathing meditation] gave me some books, [but what they were] I can't remember. I was so hazy. I remember looking at them and I don't remember what they said. But still, I came away from that experience with this person inspired. I remember the first book: the course calendar for university. I was like, where's the Buddhism, where's the Buddhism? I wanted to find all these courses, and other religions too. It was a time to finally study what I wanted to – to learn how to live and not just to study and vomit back what I had memorized, which I had found in some of the sciences and math and things like that, which were quite fascinating in many ways but also… yeah, impossible to apply, other than just pursue it until one is an expert, and then what? Then teach it to others… but still my life is a disaster, so what do I do? So that was my theme, "My life is a disaster." Maybe I didn't admit it so blatantly, but I knew I needed to change something. And I thought it was just the context. Then as I got into it more, it was, "Oh I'm taking my mind wherever I go, so I have to change my mind."

So for a couple of years I did this "Transcendental Meditation", from Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, which was very good for me. I did twenty minutes in the morning, twenty minutes in the evening. I did a little tai chi, a little bit of yoga… mostly tai chi. Just sort of floating around. I was in and out of drugs. And reading a lot. Reading a LOT. And I think it's what I was reading of the teachings, even though I misunderstood the majority of it…

Reading a lot of Buddhist…of Dharma, you mean…

Not just Buddhism, but… mainly Buddhism but other things, too. I would say they're also Dharma. It was like the Buddha was speaking through these other teachers. Yeah. Wisdom: Just wisdom mind speaking to me. And that's why I continue to love and embrace and try to learn from other traditions, too, even though I live in Buddhism, because this wisdom mind manifests in different ways. And I really like that because it really sings to me. It's not just one or two [particular religions], but when I hear these explanations of how to become a better person, they all speak to me in some way. Some I resonate more or less with, but in each of them, I know it has produced results in some people. And in that way, it's like, "Wow." It helps me to develop regardless of my path. So I find it very useful and that's why I love being with other practitioners, too. Especially serious practitioners – people who are really into their practice, whatever it is. I always come away more enthusiastic about my own practice, but also I can apply. When I hear what other people do I can apply it immediately, if it's something that I can grasp. If it's something that I can apply then it makes my own practice richer. And Buddhism coming to the West and westerners practicing Buddhism is so new and so fresh. His Holiness says use whatever you can and use whatever you've got to calm the mind and to develop a warm heart and to benefit others. There's like an infinite variety of ways, so I'm always looking. [laughs a little]

Right, the banquet.

Yeah, it is a banquet, yeah.

So you got to university, and you started pursuing… finding the classes, and kind of building on this interest, and some practice as well…

Uh, pseudo-practice, because I hadn't had like a… it was sort of Hindu-ish. I had a very strong Hindu connection, too. So I guess the sort of practice I was doing was a mix of some Jewish practice, which was very seldom and slight but it was still there, because I wasn't sure if I was going to continue with Judaism, or leave, or do both, or make my own religion. [He lets out a small laugh and smiles.] I was on this trip for a while where I was big into nature… "Nature is always speaking to me, I just have to listen to what is nature saying to me"… And also that "I'm part of nature, and that everybody is a teacher." I had this thing about "prophet;" the word prophet was very big for me. It was my mantra for awhile. So listen, watch for prophets, and actually even nature in a way was this. "Prophet" meaning: something giving a teaching; a message that I can benefit from.

So yeah, it was a big mix… hard to say "practice." Maybe just struggling (laughter): struggling, and reading all these books, and going to these classes. Because I was really hooked on, "I have to finish school, because what am I going to do with my life—practically-- if I don't finish school." That was my big trip that my parents taught me, and I believed wholeheartedly. I was a musician then, and actually there was some benefit there because it kept me from leaving school and maybe just going off and touring with a band… this attachment to school, and this attachment to getting some sort of tangible thing --even though it's not tangible—but "paper." A degree, maybe a master's or a PhD. "What will I do? Well, I'll study what I love and then teach it later." That seemed to be the only thing that I think of. And then psychology was also interesting because it was a possible way to help others with their problems. But yeah, I was so dark and confused myself that that seemed to be less and less likely. Because I [thought it was] impossible to help others, because I'm so screwed up myself.

So struggling along and going to classes and then getting heavier into self-destruction, so my interest in school started to wane because my mind was just becoming darker and darker, and becoming more depressed. I couldn't apply, even though I was so fascinated with what I was learning, I couldn't apply it in my life. I thought-- I mean I misunderstood a lot-- I thought "no desire" meant to kill my senses, and to reduce all intake, in terms of all of the senses, and also food. I engaged in fasting, sleep deprivation, any sort of… In Hinduism sometimes it's translated as 'mortification.' Any sort of mortification I could find, I was big on that. It was a skill I already had; "I'm already good at harming myself…Oh! 'He's saying harm yourself more!'"

I was really, really misunderstanding… But still, I knew there was still… Yeah, the proof was: Because I was suffering more, I knew that I was getting something wrong, and that's what led me to want to find a teacher and a community, people who were actually doing it. Although I could see that there was truth in what I was learning and hearing, I knew that I wasn't applying it and I couldn't get it on my own. That was the bottom line, "I can't do this on my own. I cannot make my own religion. Someone has done it, and I trust this person, Shakyamuni Buddha." He says there are certain things you have to do to develop a calm mind. I was big on this theme – peace of mind, peace of mind. There's certain things you have to do and there's certain things you have to not do. One of the big ones was that eventually I'd have to give up intoxicants, which I thought definitely were the path to emancipation. I even wrote it, "This is the path to enlightenment, these drugs," because I was seeing things I hadn't seen before. So of course it was like the novelty of some sort of altered perception was…actually it was quite exciting. But then my negativity grew, and it was quite obvious to myself, and particularly others were saying, "Man, you're becoming not a nice guy." And that really, that really hurt. And that was a big motivator to again seek help, seek somebody.

Maybe my interest in the Tibetan tradition also is that there is a big emphasis on teacher-student relationship. Maybe this came along with me, too. It was something I lacked when I was in my birth tradition and in my family. I never had a teacher, other than regular teachers. I never had a guide. And I was always sort of crying and praying. When I prayed, I prayed for guidance – a guide. When I was very young, I was so enthusiastic because I heard this concept, or that there was this being called, "messiah" and I thought – wow, that's fantastic that there is such a being, because I sure need it. I sure need this person. Desperately. So I kept looking.

So was it when you were still in university that you then were connected with this woman...

Yes.

And she was a nun, and you were not ordained at this time...

Yes, right.

And was there like a decisive moment where you realized," okay at some point I'm going to become ordained"?

Oh, [yes, I made the the decision to become ordained but didn't straight away] give up many of the things that one does stop doing when one becomes ordained, either naturally or by virtue of saying, "I'm going to take these vows and stop these certain behaviors" such as using drugs. The main one for me was intoxicants but I was also engaged in a lot of sexual degeneracy, and I was also selling drugs, too, which is sort of beyond just being a drug user. Some very heavy negative actions, and behaviors, and just a lot of wild, crazy activities. And also the music I was playing and listening to also became more and more degenerate and more and more negative, which was a big disturbance for me and also for people who had to suffer listening to my loud music.

So, yeah that didn't change so fast, but it was really... I was reading the Pali sutras, one of the Nikayas, one of the baskets, so from the Theravada tradition. I was reading many things at the same time, but I think it was...

Was this before or after you met her?

Around the same time….actually it was long before I met [this nun] that I had the intention of becoming a monk, because one of the first things I told [her] was, "I want to become a monk, and I want to become a monk now, right away! [Smiles.] I was so impulsive, but very inspired, too. But it was my first year of university, I was reading these sutras – Mahayana, Theravada, also these scholarly things on Buddhism, which just made me go wooo-wooo [spins head around and goes cross-eyed]. Some nice stuff in there, but really too intellectual, too conceptual. Phew!

But the translations are what I always really loved. Translations of actual teachings of the Buddha. But there was the one called, "The Benefits of the Life of a Wandering Mendicant." It's this story about Shakyamuni Buddha, with all of his monks in the forest. This king comes to see the Buddha, and he comes with his entourage, and he has some questions for Shakyamuni Buddha, and he's a little nervous as kings are because they're always at risk of being harmed and all this stuff being stolen, or being debunked or being dethroned. So of course he's a little jittery. He had gone into the forest and the forest was very calm and quiet, and he became particularly agitated because he thought, "This is too calm, I'm probably going to be ambushed."

This was a two-fold message for me: The reason the forest was so calm was because Shakyamuni Buddha, with his assembly of monks, were all meditating. And I just was like… when I heard that I was like, "Wow." Hearing about life in the forest, and this serenity, this energy, and also the fact that this king, as high as he supposedly was, position-wise and also having everything, really, he was very agitated. So I could relate. Not that I was high but I had comforts, you know a family that was pretty well-off and we always had a nice house. Even though they always tried to convince me we were poor, I saw some of my friends who didn't have what we had. So, a very comfortable life, and so the king also being agitated even though he had the highest comforts was really a shake-up for me, and I went "Yeah I know, I know what's happening here! I can't be happy by all of these trappings." And also hearing about this life of a monk – simple life, having nothing, just a few little things just to survive, being together with all of my brothers, and with our teacher, and just practicing. Just practicing: Strengthening the mind and clearing the mind, calming the mind and living so simply.

It was at that time that I said, "I'm going to become a monk. There's no other way of life that sounds so ideal. A pure life." I didn't know some of these terms like "purity." I remember when I first heard the word, "virtue," it was in a Taoist text. "Virtue." Wow, that's a great word! I had no idea what it meant, but it was like music.

So this was a couple of years before I met the nun. What I had to ask her was, "How can I become a monk, a monk as soon as possible? And, how can I practice with other people who are also practicing this way?" And I remember one of the things entering into a community, just first becoming associated with a community and then actually entering it…but at the beginning, I thought, "Wow, I'm finally with other people and we're speaking the same language", in a way. I hadn't felt like that ever in my life before. I verbalized it as, "Wow, we can talk about the Buddha and I don't have to feel like I'm a freak." I couldn't talk about the Buddhadharma with anybody before that.

Yeah. So when you say entering into the community at that point, a community of laypersons, yes?

This community in Toronto is unique. Being a part of the community, but living elsewhere and coming to be involved with the community during events such as teachings, pujas, ceremonies and things like this, that's how I started. But then actually entering into this community, one necessarily has to become a rab-jung, which is leaving home, entering the homeless life, and making a commitment to becoming a monastic. And staying in this community is implicit in that, like staying to be a part of this community for the duration, but being a monastic for life. So at that point, when I did move into this community, I entered the temple life, or "homeless life." In my heart, in my mind, as, "I am now a monastic." As well, I took vows with one of my other teachers, one of my first Tibetan teachers who is a Geshe.

So like a novice though? Or in the beginning was it a...

Pre-novice. There are three levels. I didn't mention this, but actually there are three levels. There's rabjung, which is leaving the householder's life and making the commitment to being a monastic for life. That's rabjung. And many people do this, and I feel it's really a wonderful way of starting because it's not so much pressure. There are less vows, like eight of ten vows. The main one being celibacy. But there are the other vows -- of living a more restrained way of life, more disciplined. And also, at this stage one can more easily say, "I don't think monastic life is for me." However, for me, I was already convinced.

No question...

There was no question. I mean, sure I thought of some other things I could do, but they didn't go with my plan. For certain lifestyles there was some attachment and some appeal. Like, I still wanted to be a rock musician for many years. I still had this, like, fantasy. Not that I wanted to, but I still had the fantasy going to some degree, because I had cultivated it a lot. And then I met somebody who was a rock musician, had toured, and told me what it's like. And I went, "Really..." It was good for me to hear about. There's many sufferings, that I wasn't privy to before meeting this, this sort of burnt-out musician who had traveled on the bus. "The secret bus." I was always like, "Wow, what happens on the bus? I want to go on the bus." So I still had this going for a while, but I... the strongest, I think the strongest... desire? The strongest enthusiasm I ever have had and have, for what I'm going to do with my life, has been to be a monastic. There's no doubt.
So once that initial inspiration, like when you were reading those Pali sutras, the story... was... I guess you did kind of answer my question. My question was, was there ever a time when you felt like you were deterring from that path? Where there really was a moment of questioning, like okay, I felt that I wanted to become a monastic, but now I'm really questioning it.

I think there are different levels. Oh, definitely I strayed, because I just like.... I felt crazier and crazier after that decision, so of course I strayed very far, and I didn't know what the practice was, really... I didn't know what to be a monk really was. I mean, I knew some aspects to it. And also it seemed to be hard to imagine how to practice as a monk, now, in these times. I was in the city. I'm a city boy, you know? I had spent some time in the forest, so I guess I could relate to some degree, but most of my life was spent in the city. I didn't see how one could practice, and I didn't see any monks walking around. When I did it was like... it was almost like an alien had landed. That's why I thought I had to go to Asia, "That's the only way to do it."

I guess I did stray, because I got heavier into drugs. I got less interested in school. I probably got less interested because I thought I could mix degeneracy with spirituality, because I was still convinced that some of the things in my degenerate life were actual spiritual activities. So that's where some of the confusion led to, and that's what made the confusion grow, was this sort of trying to, sort of mix the psychedelic, and also a cult-ish sort of dark side of myself, with what I saw as being very bright, light, and a pure level of myself, which I externalized and I saw in Buddhism and also in people practicing Buddhism. And in, Buddhist way of life, Buddhist communities, I really idealized. Really, this is... when I first came to this temple, I said, "This is home."

So the woman who you met, she was affiliated with this temple... you came to it through her?

It was her temple. Yes, the temple that I first came to, there's an abbess there, a female, nun, fully ordained in the Chinese tradition, but also ordained as a novice by His Holiness the Dalai Lama. It's in the Tibetan tradition, and also Gelugpa. Also His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the main source of inspiration for this community. It was very unique because it's not a traditional monastery. I mean it has many positive aspects….Good discipline and good behavior. But the practices…it has less emphasis on ritual, but a heavy emphasis on purification and some of the foundation practices of purification within traditional Tibetan Buddhist context. Also a lot of psychotherapy, which one can say is essentially what the Buddhadharma is in terms of being a method to become totally mentally healthy, but this nun pratices a mix of Western psychotherapy techniques: gestalt, psychosynthesis, transactional analysis, mixed or used in the context of Buddhadharma. So it's a very powerful experiential community, not so hung up on being Tibetan-ish and traditional. However, even studying the texts and the practice of formal concentration and intensive retreats were kept in the background, and this is some of the stuff I missed and felt I was deprived of. There's also heavy emphasis on social services, helping others, and working to support the temple. So we would do this by way of helping others in the community and working in hospitals. Disabled people, people who were dying or sick. So yeah it was very unique, and...

And this was in Toronto?
This was in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

So you moved in, I mean you did move in with them, with your initial, pre-novice...

Right, so I moved in 1994. I had known this nun for two years, but like I said I was... what did you call it?... Wayward; in and out.

What was her reaction when you first met her and said I want to become a monk?

She said, "Woah, cowboy!" Actually, when I said I wanted to be a monk, I'll tell you.... it's embarrassing but I'll tell you what I said. Quote: "If I don't become a monk, I will explode." That's quite something. I feel shy to say that but I guess if I look into it more, I felt a sense of urgency. I felt like, I definitely felt like it was an escape from my problems, I definitely felt like it was a cure. A bit of…the Western "instant cure." So she said, "okay, well hang on" and she said, and this was my koan now for the next few years, and actually many, many years, which was, "Then what?" So these two words, because I did not know what being a monk meant, except very superficially. What did appeal to me was what I was riding on – a simple life, a community life, not emphasizing money making and status and anything these things. Actually the opposite. So in a way it was part of my extreme mind, which was "I want the opposite of what I see as not being healthy," because from where I came from, it was status... and the usual – getting married, having lots of things, having lots of kids... and I just didn't want to...

The house, the job, the car...

Yeah, I didn't want to buy the program. So it was extreme. I want extremely the "not that." [laughs] So sometimes the Buddha is called The Revolutionary and it's true, it's true. And so this was revolutionary for me, but very impulsive. Because I did not know very much Dharma. I mean I had been reading a lot but I didn't know much Dharma because I had misunderstood what I had read. So I needed guidance and I needed to start to purify, I needed to start to clear up, and I needed to start to start the recovery of coming out of this wild life, and this nun used to say "This is the time to let the dust settle." And also, "The war is over." And these things – letting the dust settle, which was just relaxing the pressures on myself. I had to drop out of school, it was my third year of university and I dropped out just before exams. Which was sad for me, because I told you I was big into school, and even still now in a way I wish…I could not have finished then, but in a way I wish I had finished it off, sort of like, "That's done." But. I struggled a lot reconciling that: coming out of university, and not having the opportunity to go back sometimes when I wanted to.

So, yeah, time to let the dust settle, time to purify, and finding out what is the "Then what?" What does it mean to become a monk, be a monk, live as a monk? And I'm still learning what that means, because one can be a monastic and one can manifest as a monastic in many different ways. So I chose NOW. I made a big choice by coming to India, to manifest in a different way as a monk, or to practice in a different way. Before, I was being psychotherapeutized most of the time, and physically caring for others. Dogs and people.

When you say, " being psychotherapeutized" by the community, you mean?

Yeah, there was a lot of group therapy, but mainly one-to-one by this nun. Sometimes people ask, "What's it like, being with your teacher?" "What's it like having a teacher?" For one. But also, "what's it like living with your teacher?" I said, "Imagine being with your therapist, who's really serious on changing your mental patterns and your behavioral patterns – living with them, across the hall, 24 hours a day." And that was my way of describing it. And it was not easy.

So this is for 7 years, basically?

Yeah, and some of it was difficult for me.

Difficult in what way?

[pauses] There was a part of me that wanted to totally give myself, and say, "Alright, my life is in your hands," to this particular person, and in many ways I did. I tried to see this nun as pure, and I for sure put her on an extremely high pedestal and jumped into this relationship too quickly without thoroughly investigating her…I was very vulnerable, lost and unable to cope with day to day life, and actually mentally dysfunctional to a large degree. As a result of not having the ability nor the time to check fully, we together made our relationship out to be much different than it actually was. It turns out she was a religious friend and a "therapist" of sorts but from both sides was an attempt to see it as a Guru-disciple relationship…which is actually reserved for extremely special and high levels of practice. This was not healthy for either of us. I was in part responsible for what His Holiness calls "spoiling the teacher" by misplaced blind faith without an appropriate basis. I guess it was 7 years of checking her out, and I came to the conclusion that this person is not qualified to be my teacher…mainly in the sense that in wanting to study the scriptures I need to study with someone who has studied the texts themselves, never mind considering whether that person can lead me all the way or not. Having a direct teacher with whom I can tread the entire expanse of the path was and is not what I need from my side either at this point. It is important to have a teacher, but there are different types of teachers for different stages of one's practise. I need and have teachers for my discipline, to learn the scriptures and to guide my practice in terms of concentration, purification and accumulating merit, for example. That's where I am at. I am not involved in Tantra, thus I do not need a "Guru," someone who is already "there" and can lead me single-handedly all the way to enlightenment…or simply put, a principal teacher that I have ongoing direct contact with who is fully qualified to give me all of the different levels of teachings because, frankly, I am not a proper vessel for all of the teachings. On the other hand, I do consider His Holiness the Dalai Lama my Root Guru, which means that despite being not a ready vessel for all of the teachings now, He is the one who I follow knowing He is fully qualified…and He says that what is needed is to study the scriptures, to develop through logic and move towards developing what one needs to become a suitable vessel…by realizing emptiness and developing Bodhicitta, the pure altruistic wish to become enlightened for the sake of all beings. He actually says, contrary to the usual presentations, that analytical meditation is MORE important than concentration meditation for beginners. Thus the need to study and debate, which IS analytical meditation.

So, besides trying the see the nun as Tara herself (a female Buddha) and disregarding all of the problems i saw as being only my own crappy mind, there was another level of me that resisted that, and did not do that, and did not want to do that…giving myself totally over to her in every aspect of my life. There was some ability to reason still active in me...His Holiness says this practice of seeing the teacher as pure can lead to abuse. So I had a conflict. There was a major level of trust, because in many ways I felt relief. I used to say to myself, "I'm so happy. I'm so fortunate to have this relationship, because whenever I ask my teacher for advice, she never steers me wrong. Finally I have someone in my life... I'll ask a question, "What should I do?" or, "I'm feeling like maybe I should do this, this, or this, what do you think?" And she'll give me an answer from her heart, which is in my best interest. Not mixed with any sort of contamination or self-interest, or"... and having this experience at that time was really refreshing. But then as I mentioned some parts of this relationship and other aspects of this particular community, and of myself manifesting in this community... some things were just out and out questionable in terms of being in line with the Dharma, and there were some things that I questioned if they were of the highest benefit for myself, in terms of being a practitioner.

Right, in terms of how you manifested your monastic...

Yeah, like I didn't have as much opportunity to study the scriptures as I wanted to, and the less time I had, the less time I wanted to. So I felt like I became jaded, and also purification practices, and my meditation practices, the less I had the opportunity to do it because I was performing a lot of service for others and also a lot of physical karma yoga, (building, and painting – building this temple), and a lot of administrative work for this temple. The less time I had for these other, you could say more formal practices, but things that I had hardly begun and hadn't finished, such as prostrations and concentration practise. There are prescribed foundational purification practices. And so I was sort of going along with community activities, and the less of these purification pratices I was able to do, the less I wanted to do, and then I became not interested in doing many of these things, on some level. And there was another level that felt I was depriving myself and felt like I was missing something by not doing them.

So those two things, and also, yeah I considered myself a student of this teacher and we had discourses, but I didn't feel like I was a full-time student, and I wanted to be a full-time student in general, and particularly a full-time student of the scriptures. Why? I want to know everything that the Buddha taught, and I want to know it directly, and I want to take it and then apply it. So I want to do both – learn what the Buddha taught, and... there's different views. There are different views. There are different schools. And I want to hear the different views, I want to debate, I want to hash it out in my own mind. Lama Tsongkapa is a great inspiration for me because he was, let's say, a perfect example of someone who did purification practices nonstop; perfect example of someone who studied the scriptures extensively; a perfect example of someone who debated and analyzed the scriptures as much as possible; a perfect example of someone who was always beneficial for people, not necessarily just teaching, but just beneficial for whomever came near Lama Tsongkapa. So he's a big inspiration for me, and also His Holiness the Dalai Lama – I see him as no different than Lama Tsongkapa, and actually no different than the Buddha himself, so he's... all of these things, too, and these are the things I want to do.

And I also, I didn't mention this... I want to do it in a traditional way. A more traditional way, so that I know that traditional way. As a westerner, I might have to do something in the future, in terms of helping the Dharma spread. Because this is one of the things that a monk is asked to do. When the Buddha sent his monks out, he said "Go out for the good of the many and the happiness of the many." He said in there too, you know, "clean up your act." So I'm cleaning up my act, and I'm studying, and I do want to help in some way. And how I'll do that in the future as a westerner, it remains to be seen and I'm a little excited to see how that will happen, because I'm very excited about the Dharma spreading to the West. Into these places where it never has been, or where it is needs to grow, and also needs a little bit of a shake-up, too, because there are some parts that I have some problems with in terms of how its melding with our society. Some parts are really quite nice to see, like we use Oreo cookies (His Holiness always jokes) as tormas (ritual Tibetan offering cakes), we don't use barley. So that's wonderful. But some of the other things in terms of coming into a culture that doesn't have a strong religious base but has an open-minded approach. It's really... it's an exciting time.

But I want to be steeped in the traditional monastic way of life and the traditional studies. I want to do that now, and first. And also, I was in a co-ed monastic situation and I did have difficulties with this, too. I wanted to be in a monastery with monks right from the outset. This was a little hard when my teacher was female, and of course she has female disciples and male disciples, so it wasn't realistic given the context. And I have a very strong connection with nuns…I seem to be constantly surrounded by nuns, which I try to use as a training, because I have a very rigid idea of being a male, so it loosens that up. And also I feel a very strong connection with the female manifestations of the divine, that being Tara< st1:place>. And the really wrathful ones! That's just the way it is.…anyhow, this particular nun was the only person I had the opportunity to get help from so I had to make the best of it. And still, it was not easy. So in order to tame my lust, I need to be more isolated, and more with other males who are struggling with the same problems. The texts say one needs to be separated from the objects of desire, hence separate places for monks and nuns to live is standard. And male teachers, I had very few. They would come sometimes to visit our temple, and I feel I need that too. Sometimes the nun said, "You know we can't be so lovey-dovey, because we're male and female, just, it makes things a bit difficult." But I always feel happy when I see the monks embracing, because it's something that in the West... I'll just say in my own life, something I've been sorely lacking, is clean, wholesome physical contact with others. Not enough from family, not enough from friends. Some-- enough to survive--but not enough to say, "my cup runneth over." So I'd say that is something that's important to me too, is affectionate relationships with others, and in a co-ed situation it was a struggle. And also I learned a lot by being with other serious monastic practitioners, male and female, learning to see females differently. Usually the conditioning, my conditioning has been: females are less, and females are usually to serve, and females are flesh. And so, by living with other females, and being in not a relationship like that, it had to change my mind to some extent. And so Shakyamuni Buddha often said, "Go do the forest, go to the mountains, lock yourself up and look at your mind. And kick Mara's butt!" [laughs] So I'm looking. A little bit cloistered I feel is necessary for me. And in the co-ed situation that I was in, we were cloistered in terms of society, but not cloistered in terms of separating male and female for a while. I even like to hear that with dogs, you know, the males are over there, the females are over there, and they don't get into any trouble with each other, you know? [Laughs.] His Holiness says when he has an animal hospital, that's the way it's going to be: separate! Monastic dogs [laughs]! So this is what I'm working on, too.

How can you reconcile, or is this something that you're thought about in your own mind, this relationship between the kind of... the cloistered part of being a monastic, which is very much, I mean, in any monastic tradition, you know, Christianity or Buddhism, and then bridging that to the relationship or the potential for benefits of that monastic community or individuals to the lay community... how do you relate those two?

Yeah, that's a very good question. Well there's the lay community of that particular religious group who are also faithful followers, but then there's also the lay community, or you can just say, "community at large" who is everybody and anybody. So these are two aspects that I look at when I look at this relationship between the monastics and, I'll just say "the community" to make it easy. It's a good question. I think, for myself personally, there are phases. So, like in Ecclesiastes, in the Torah, it says, "There's a time to reap and a time to sow." Likewise, for a monastic, for myself, there's a time, and I don't know... I can't say chronologically how it works because I'm still sort of flip-floppy that way in terms of time. But anyways. There's a time to be of service, and a time to be in retreat. There's a time to buckle down and study the scriptures. There's a time for me to study the Tibetan language because that's how I can access all of the scriptures, and the full compendium of available scriptures, more directly. And also that's how I can communicate and receive oral transmissions more directly from my teachers. So there's a time for that. There's a time to be locked up, there's a time to be out. And there's a time to be busy, and there's a time to just sit and not be busy. So don't just... how does it go? There's a saying I love... "Don't just do something, sit there." The opposite of "don't just sit there, do something," which is how I've spent most of my life. Now, actually I'm practicing, "don't just do something, sit there." For what purpose? Just to sit there. Helps with too much anxiety.

So, it really depends. It depends on the community's karma. It depends on the religious communities' relationship with the community at large, I feel. And also for myself personally it depends on where I'm at right now.

A couple of my themes were: I wanted to develop more concentration, and I didn't have enough time. And I also made it so that I didn't have enough time after awhile because it was like, you know, the lazy mind gets to be quite active. An active lazy mind, that's quite something. I didn't have enough time to practice concentration. Also being in a big city I find is quite distracting. Also the technology I found quite distracting, and it was everywhere and I got very involved in it…audio, visual, computer... And I got involved in it in a beneficial way (we made TV programs about the life of the Buddha), but also I got involved in it in a distracting way. So there's a time for audio/visual stuff, too! [Smiles.]

And for me now it's: I want to practice more concentration. I want to actively start sucking the life out of the lustful mind, and destroying it, actively. I'm really committing like this, like, "I'm going after you! You're history, kid." That mind. And also, more formal study of the scriptures' structure, and more time to analyze the teachings. More time, just me and my mind – like this. So this is the time for that, now.

This community here in Tushita was wonderful. (It's a wonderful, mostly western community of people practicing together and also a place where lay people can come and receive the teachings and also some guidance and also meet some practitioners.) Just now, because of this sort of illusion of fighting between Pakistan and India So my time to not be in community again was ripening, here in India. Now I'm in a hut by myself, so my karma has changed. And I feel many times that karma needs to be changed actively. And then sometimes karma happens, and it's not to be changed, it's to be engaged in. So I'm engaging in this while I have to spend more time on my own, reflecting…in a reflective state. Practicing more... concentration-meditation practice more... analytical-meditation, and studying Tibetan and the scriptures. That's for me, yeah, that's where I'm at.

So I don't know how well I answered your question, because I really think it's interdependent – how a community or how a monastic or how a practitioner relates to other practitioners and other people. When I first got here to India I was like... I was out cutting the leper's nails, I was out with the substance abuse program here, going to their meetings and helping some of the addicts there, I was going down to the old folks home and I was, you know, massaging them. And then I was all over the place because I came with this energy of, "I am a social service monk!" [Laughs.] I can't say I'm not that; that's a level of me. But now how it's manifesting is I've given up some of those activities because I've found it was just too much. I was getting to be frantic again, not having enough time for everything. So I said, "okay my priorities are studying Tibetan and practicing concentration." But also, I have a friend who's an Indian who is just getting off of drugs, and we're buddies. I'm like his big brother. So I'm glad I have that relationship, because I do have a responsibility to other addicts like myself, because I've been there, and I have done that, and I've been clean for almost nine years. And so I have a responsibility, I feel. So this karma ripened to be this buddy, so also it's a good friendship. Also I feel more local now living here. He's a local and he's very helpful to make me feel at home here in India. And also, I've had this karma the past... half a year... three quarters of a year to be with a lot of Indian Buddhists, and it so... it's very special for me, because I really was convinced, and I was sure... and it is true that Buddhism all but died in India. So to be with Indian Buddhists is so precious, because Shakyamuni Buddha was an Indian himself. So I spent some time with the Gujarati and Ambedkar Buddhists in the south, and also my friend here from Kangra is an Indian Buddhist, and I really respect these people. And I like to be with them because I feel like I'm getting a taste of ancient India, in a way, through these people who are living now. So I guess still there's that need of meeting people who practice dharma now , and meeting Indians who are practicing the dharma now. How wonderful.

So as you were describing to me, your life right now, like in this little, this community that you are... the question that occurred to me was what do you think is the main difference, or the strength that you get from living this, with the robes and you know doing your practice in the robes, doing the social service in the robes, doing your life... as opposed to... could you do it as a lay person, you know do the studies, do the service, do the concentration practice... what's the defining difference besides this external cloth?

That's a good question. I'll tell you something that's been going on with me is that, when I see lay people who are engaged in some serious study, I feel like, and maybe I shouldn't say this too loud!... I don't know why I'm having this feeling, so part of me needs to talk about it... I'm trying to figure this out for myself, too... I wonder why they're not monks and nuns. So I guess in a way that answers the question in that, I can't see for myself any other way of life other than as a monk. I seem to be constantly surrounded by nuns, which I have tried to use as a training So, yeah I'm at a loss for words because I can't see myself as a layperson... The ordination that I received from his Holiness the Dalai Lama, two ordinations...

Was that since you came to India this time?

No, I came to India twice for ordination. So I came to India four times, including this trip. This is like not a trip anymore, this is "moving" to India, but I have been to India prior to this three times. Once with friends who were becoming ordained and with the nun, the second time also with the nun for novice ordination, and the third time by myself, for full ordination. But I hold it as the most precious thing that I have. I also have a strong interest in learning the vinaya and practicing the vinaya (the monastic discipline for monks and nuns) more purely and more strongly, because I feel it is the essence of the Dharma, and also I feel that monks and nuns are the way to make the Dharma flourish, and also the way to make the dharma stay longer, and to keeping the Dharma pure. I feel like we have this responsibility.

How Buddhism will come to be in the West in terms of lay and monastic... There are a lot of different ideas about this, and I can't say that I have a well-formulated idea. But I do feel strongly that monastics are key in the survival of the Dharma. Also Shakyamuni Buddha taught laypeople, and there are people who don't want to be monastics. I have to admit I pray every day that everyone becomes ordained. Lama Osel Rinpoche, who is the Spanish reincarnation of Lama Yeshe, says those who are monks or nuns should stay monks or nuns, and those who are not monks or nuns should become monks or nuns! So it's actually quite a strong... I mean it's funny, I also chuckle when I hear this... It's a very strong statement, actually, because Shakyamuni Buddha taught to lay people how to live as best as one can as a layperson, and one can do, as far as I've been taught, a lot as a layperson. I do feel it takes longer as a layperson.

Longer to...

I do feel it takes longer to become enlightened. Longer to see the path more clearly. Longer to purify. Longer to do many, many things. I can say this, for myself. For me, if I look at... [laughs] it's very hard for me to look at my life as a layperson now. It's sort of like, I tried it and it was terrible. My life as not-a-monk was total suffering. My life as a monk, also when I first became a monastic, the first year it was the worst year of my life. But at the same time I knew for the first time -- His Holiness always says this, too -- if you know why you're suffering it's so much easier to suffer. And there is an end in sight, even though sometimes it seemed "there is no end in sight." I thought maybe I had damaged my brain from some of the drugs I had used, and from my lifestyle. I thought I had really screwed up the wiring, like, irreversibly. It's not true, but I thought that sometimes. But I guess, yeah, the strength was: I had someone who was saying, "You are going to be okay." The Buddha is saying this, but my teachers, my living representatives of the Buddha are saying, "You're going to be okay." Okay, I'll trust you, I'll keep going. And also, this suffering is temporary. And, I have to suffer this because I've never looked at my suffering before. So yes, the first year of my life as a monastic... and actually they say that the first year -- maybe it's not always for the same reason -- BUT style="mso-spacerun: yes" toughest. And if you get through that, I was just telling a new nun recently, "Hang on! [Laughter.] The first year is really tough!" Once you get through it, it's much easier. And I can tell from my own experience it's still a struggle! And His Holiness said too, outright, he said, "Listen, monks. You're going to have a lot of hardship." And also at the teachings, too, I was trying to hear, what does His Holiness have to say about this situation between India and Pakistan because most westerners left. What should I do? I was trying to listen, and you know what I heard him say?<> >He kept saying, "One needs to practice the Dharma, especially in times of hardship."

So sure, it's not easy all the time, but I look back at my life as a layperson, and it just... I feel sorry for this person [Laugh.] I feel sorry, I feel sad, and I feel sympathy for this person. And I feel happy to be living the way of life that I am now, and there's sort of a glimpse of joy that I never felt before, that I always was like, "Where's that joy, where's that bliss that I keep hearing about?" I haven't found it, but I feel a sense of the purpose of my life coming, and also a sense of the joyfulness of the monastic life, of keeping vows, and saying, "Wow, I'm leading a less harmful life and I'm becoming a less harmful person, even if this crazy mind is still very strong." Still like this mind that says, "Yeah, I'm going to defeat this enemy, my internal enemy…." There's joy there.

There's joy here, with that, knowing that I'm engaged in a struggle, and it's like, this is the jihad that they talk about. The jihad is inside, and it's defeating this very strong negative energy. And not just defeating, but also taking this energy... many of these high beings who became deities, they subdued these evil forces and they said, "Now I gotcha. You're all tied up. What are you going to do now? You're going to actually help. You're going to help now. Okay? You have no choice. You're going to help the Dharma and you're going to help Dharma practitioners." I think that's what I need to do with my negative mind, too. Tie it up. And it's still here. I don't think it's something that gets obliterated. But it's something that gets transformed into something... when I see these wrathful deities, I think this is transformed negativity. But then you can't call it "negativity" anymore. But this energy needs to be transformed and used, sometimes it's almost scary how much energy I know that I have, and I barely have touched it, but the energy that I have seen, and if I just look a little bit, it's like wow, there's a lot of energy. And also there's a lot of strong negative energy. But this energy needs to be reworked, refashioned, and redirected. And gosh darn it, I'm going to do it.

I believe you.

Me too, hallelujah!

I'm your cheerleader.

We're going to change this energy, yee hoo!

So, kind of taking that personal intention and direction and gumption, how do you relate that to the Buddhist monastic Sangha in terms of energy in the world today? What do you see or hope for, or potential, you know, in what the monastic sangha has to offer? Or, maybe "offer" isn't the right word, but yeah potential, or what can we do...

That's a good question. I think individually each of us, just holding, just only holding the vows, will change the world, the world energy. So this for me is the best reason to keep vows. Not only does it make me feel better, more relaxed, more happy, more meaningful life, more beneficial…just keeping vows, never mind anything else. Because that much restraint has removed that much negative vibrations from the world. Even if it's contrived, even if it's forced. Even that much. So I would say as a world Sangha, if we all keep our vows well, and learn the vows... I say this too because many westerners who become ordained don't have the good fortune to have a teacher who can tell them all the vows, and tell them how to practice all these vows, how to work these vows in life now, or in whatever context we find ourselves in, and also don't have the support of fellow practitioners. I think, I harp on this a lot and it comes to my mind a lot. Maybe it's not just westerners, but because I am a westerner and I'm around a lot of western sangha, I see this, and I see a lot of older Sangha who don't feel supported and feel down and bitter, and I don't want to see this as a projection of my future, so I want to actively engage in making this not happen for myself, and also helping those who have this happening, and those who don't have the support and the conducive opportunities that they need as monastics. I feel some concern... I feel a strong concern about this. So this is something that monastics can do if we have these opportunities, or if we can see the necessity of these opportunities. We need to help other SWangha, or potential Sangha and struggling new Sangha, and struggling older Sangha, to have these opportunities of support and find the joy in the vows, and find the best way to manifest as a monk or a nun. And having an opportunity to study and practice, or be of service, or however one's predisposition is. And having a teacher. I am shocked at the number of people who don't have a teacher – just someone they can go to and say, "Hi, I've got a problem happening."

You're shocked at the number of people in the monastic sangha or just in general?

In general, particularly among Sangha. It's a big shocker.

Don't they need to have a teacher, though, in order to become ordained in the first place?

Monastics, yes, one needs a quorum of monastics that have certain qualifications but a teacher…apparently not. I mean traditionally one needs the blessings of one's teacher. I mean way back you needed the blessings of your parents, but I think this is context-specific. I mean, if someone is renouncing the householder's life... I can ask of myself, "Are my parents going to give me permission to do something that they think, truly think, might be crazy?" It's not realistic. Really one needs to give one's self permission. But there's some truth in there because really if one is going to disturb... make a disturbance by becoming ordained... anyway, it's very tricky. It's very tricky. I mean I can't see how that would happen but, one needs to be very skillful in terms of becoming ordained, let's put it this way. But back to the question about a teacher... yeah, if one goes to someone and requests ordination, often it is traditionally one's teacher. Now, many people are going for ordination to people who are very well respected and very highly realized – I would say Buddhas – going to them for ordination and they're granting ordination. And for the welfare of these people themselves who need the protection of the vows and who really, strongly want the vows, but the situation does not allow for…or the people haven't set themselves up or haven't created the karma, to have an ongoing (I think this is the key), an ongoing, stable (maybe not living with the person, because that's very rare, and also maybe not the best thing, there's a debate about this and it depends on one's karma and predispositions), but don't have this ongoing, steady, strong, wholesome relationship with the teacher to keep going. And, know how to be a monk or a nun. We don't have a western monastery where people can train… in some places there are…in some places it's happening. There are some good situations in Europe...

[Tape 2]

So, we were on monastics... people intending to become monastics, new monastics, people who are living as monastics, westerners... I know mostly, or I'm sort of interested mostly... I find myself with mostly western sangha, so I guess that's why I am still on this theme. We need a monastery, and there are some efforts to make when here in South India. The ball was rolling and there are some obstacles. A place where people can come and learn what they're getting into, be with others who are in it, be with others who are senior who have some experience. I don't know about the benefits of learning about monastic life from people who have disrobed. Sometimes... I have seen this... people contribute their experience through writing an essay or maybe talking about, "I was a monastic, and I disrobed." I always feel pain when I hear someone has disrobed. I have to sometimes re-assess that, because when someone disrobes, sometimes there's a good reason to disrobe. Sometimes people have broken their vows – that's very difficult. Some people need to give back their robes because it's better if... if they can't be, or don't want to be a monastic, better to give back the vows. Why keep them? This could be dangerous, too.

Then there's also a third scenario. Someone who I recently spent some time with... this person disrobed because they didn't set themselves up right. They sent themselves somewhere, figured that they should teach, not being asked to do any of these things: One, going to some far off place. Two, being without other sangha. Three, being without a teacher. Four, teaching... teaching what? Really setting themselves up poorly, and fell. I don't think this person broke their vows, hopefully not. But, let's say, fell. Gave their robes back to a statue of the Buddha. Best thing – give the robes back to one's ordination master – "I'm sorry, i need to give my vows back." Cool. Kosher. Next best: to another... to a group of monks, or to another teacher. Another of one's teachers, not necessarily one's abbot. Also to a group of fully-ordained monks. Pretty good. Because this is within the vinaya; there's sort of like quorum, and there's like what constitutes a Sangha, a group... things like this. To a statue of the Buddha... one can also take the bodhisattva vow from a statue of the Buddha. It's not recommended. It's if one has no choice. It's like, last case, last ditch... not really great. But, I guess better than not giving back the vows. And I know somebody else, they left their vows…I guess so... but physically they left their robes behind. Technically, unless there was something they did with their mind about giving their vows back, technically the vows are still going... like still sort of like... cruising. Are active. But entering into a lay life without giving one's vows back... wow, I don't... this like is not recommended. This is like unthinkable, but it happens.

So, why? Why are all these things happening? That's a good question. That's the big debate. And how can we help it not happen. How can we help? One, people need to be sure that they know what they're getting into and that it's what they want to do, and have an opportunity to really process it in a good environment. Maybe be in a monastery with others. His Holiness recommends this. Don't ordain temporarily. Some schools of Buddhism in some places (and I'm not poo-pooing it, actually I think it's a great tradition) like even in the Tibetan tradition, many kids, they ordain young and then they give back their robes later. They've had the experience of being a monk. Maybe it will benefit them, they'll have a good foundation. Also I know somebody who just killed themselves. They were a monk... Tibetan. They just killed themselves the other day. Close friend of mine. He was a monk when he was younger. Did it benefit him? Ultimately, maybe not. Doesn't even know karma. His Holiness says, "Go to a monastery if you're thinking about becoming a monastic. Sit with it for awhile. Even... (What did he say? I'm just repeating some of the things I've heard…) Maybe wait five years after having taken refuge before becoming ordained." I would say, too, spend some time in the monastic environment. And maybe that's part of this five years, or the trial. Or the five year period --contemplation period -- where one can see, "Oh, this is what monastic life is like. Oh, these are other monastics. Oh, this is how they behave and this is what they do as monastics." Because there's like a... you know they say there are innumerable things one can do in samsara, and like, you'll never be satisfied. But there's almost innumerable things one can do as a sangha, and be satisfied. [Laughter.] I think. Maybe not innumerable, but uh...

Well it's like you said earlier – the distractions can still be there...

Well, sure. So, maybe not innumerable, but I would say this much: That there are many many, many, opportunities... many, many things a sangha can do, and lead a stable, and beneficial-- for one's self and others-- monastic life. Many things one can do. And also there's different phases. And that's okay too. It's not like... it's like I say, "I'm a social service monk." I'm not inherently a social service monk. I've done it, I do it, I will do it, and I don't know. It's a nice place to be, too – I don't know. We'll see what happens, we'll just wait and see. So people need an opportunity to be with other monastics.

Also, there's a big debate about should we learn the vows before or not. There's definitely big benefits in not knowing the vows beforehand. One knows – I'm going to become a monk, I'm going to be a celibate, I'm not going to work for profit. Because some monastics do have to work to survive as a monastic – that's not traditional work. Because this is... you could call it right monastic livelihood in a way. Traditionally, not working is recommended. Some people don't have a choice. I worked for many... as a rabjung and novice I worked for eight years, full time. But it was providing service, and it was to help support the temple and the others there and my life as a Dharma practitioner. That's another hot debate. But anyhow. See how other monastics do it. Be with, not just senior monks and nuns from one's own, sort of, background, but I think who have done the traditional training program as monastics – with some Geshes or meditators. People who are realized or very learned. Well-disciplined and steeped in discipline, learning, hearing, contemplation, meditation... the whole gamut. Be with them. Then after ordination (and also I think the three level ordination is a great way to go, just because I did it and I think it's a great way of doing it, I wouldn't have done it any other way) spend some time at this first level of ordination. First spend some time with solid --oh I have to say this, because I have the opportunity. Please, someone who's considering ordination, spend some time with solid lay vows. Solid lay vows. I know people who have become ordained – the night before they were smoking dope, they were drinking beer, they were out partying, having a final fling – "This is my last chance to do all those things I won't be doing anymore." [Said with a southern twang for effect.] I feel very awkward about this because it's questionable how much renunciation the person entering into ordination has if one is doing this. One is not convinced of the downfalls of these behaviors thoroughly, because they're still attached to it. There still must be some idea that it brings happiness. If there's not happiness in something truly to be found, why do it? One won't do it if one is convinced that there is no happiness in there. Best to go into ordination with some renunciation. At least some of these big things like sex and drugs [smiles and laughs] and rock and roll... some of the wilder things, they should be gone, I think. Personally, this is my opinion. They should be gone before taking the first level of ordination. So good, lengthy, stable lay morality. Pratimoksha vows, for a layperson. Maybe even the celibacy vow for a while before. But then, if the opportunity is right, why not do rabjung? Some take rabjung and don't wear robes. Some people take rabjung, this first level of "I've left the householder's life" and do wear robes…it depends on where they find themselves and what their abbot recommends.

Yeah, meaning, I think, entering the homeless life, committing to... See the actual Tibetan, I'm at a loss. Rab-jung ...

I can...

You can look for it. I've failed my first Tibetan test [smiles]. So, but it means leaving the householder's life, entering into the homeless life. And also committing to taking novice ordination as a monk or a nun. So, one as a rabjung doesn't do sojong, the confession ceremony, one does as a Getsul (novice). Rabjung is technically not a part of the vinaya, but obviously it's there for a good reason and I've seen it in my own life. Some people don't wear robes during this period, some people do.

Did you?

I did not. And I know a nun now who's a new rabjung and wears robes, and somebody else is about to ordain as a rabjung who will wear robes. And it was okay for me not to wear robes as a rabjung. I was in a very stable community, had a very strict and solid teacher, and a very beneficial teacher-student relationship in terms of my vows. It was great. If someone doesn't have that, it's questionable whether one should take ordination, first of all. If one doesn't have a community and a teacher and other practitioners... it's questionable. I would say, maybe not a good idea to become ordained. I know somebody in Toronto. He works, and he lives on his own, and he's a fully-ordained monk. I don't know how he does it. I lived in Toronto like this for three months like this, but still I went to see some of my teachers, I received teachings, I had some Dharma-buddies. I was like "I'm out of here real soon! I know where I'm going!" I had a trajectory, I knew what was happening. But somebody who's in a long term living on their own, I think there's a saying, Thich Nat Hanh I think said it, it's dangerous because when a tiger comes down from the mountains, he's in danger of being killed. So like this we're in danger of losing our vows. You know, we start out, we have a weak mind, we're easily influenced by others, and usually it's not good influence. So it's questionable whether one should ordain into those circumstances.

So I can't say better to wear robes during rabjung or not. I can say I didn't, some people do, great. It really depends. Check with one's abbot – that's what I would say.

Also, as a novice I spent a lot of time (now this is getsul, this is the second level of ordination) not wearing robes. Now I'll talk about this, 'cause I have the opportunity! I had a hard time with this. Sometimes it was okay – I was working, some people feel weird when they see robes, some people freak out when they see robes, some people feel very good when they see robes, and some people feel wonderful when they see robes. So in a western, or in a non-traditional-Buddhist country environment, sometimes it's not easy. I didn't wear robes much of the time. Even in the temple sometimes I wasn't wearing robes. Not out of choice. It was a non-choice situation. It was: "I'll just do what the community does." And this... often in the vinaya it says, if you're not sure what to do, follow the tradition of your community. And I would add to that and say too (just from my own small side): Consult with your own wisdom mind, as much as one has wisdom. Consult with one's own --let's put it this way --reasoning faculty, as well. Because one's community... there could be problems in one's own community. There are many communities that have fallen apart. There are many communities that have struggled with problems. There are many communities that have been involved in scandals. So there's also this to consider – one needs to check in, with one's self.

So for me, looking back, I wish I had spent more time in robes. It would have been better for my mind. I think my mind went slack, and lax, in terms of my practice, in terms of my manifesting out in the world, as a human. Knowing, I'm a monastic, and reminding myself, and others, that I am a monastic: wearing robes helps with this. Sure, they say: When you become ordained, really you have to have the mind of the monastic, not just the garb or the costume. It's true. But at the same time Pabonka Rinpoche says, when Atisha went to Indonesia, he spent thirteen months, he never took his robes off. And another one of my teachers... who was it? Let's see if I can remember it. But many of my teachers sing the praises... Ah, nowadays, Pabonka Rinpoche also says...

Which Rinpoche?< o:p>

Pabonka Rinpoche... he wrote Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand. So he said, "Nowadays we monks, we take off our robes, and we wear lay clothes to travel." And he says this will harm the teachings. This allows for slackness of mind, and also it gives a not-good impression to lay Buddhists. And also in general, to people in general. If they know this person's a monk and sees them doing this, what does that say? One of the things is that when we become a monk or a nun it is obvious, it isn't a secret. We adopt the signs of ordination, which is the robes, and we take off the signs of being a layperson, which is particularly white-coloured clothing, but there's certain clothes like... the Indian pants, or... anyways in the West we wear pants and shirts or things like... have longer hair. So we have short hair. Why? It's a sign. Is it important? Well, and omniscient mind, Shakyamuni Buddha, Lama Tsongkapa... all of these enlightened beings have said... saying the praises of the benefits of wearing the signs. Sure, it's a costume. Even in the Lama Choepa Guru Puja it says... you, Buddha, or Guru, you manifest, or you're playing the role of a saffron robed monk. Sure we're playing the role. It's the best role to play. Why? An omniscient mind said, this is the best role to play. Why? TO style="mso-spacerun: yes" main from to harm. And reminding one's self, oh! I am a monk. It even comes into one's dreams. Oh! I am a monk... and how does it manifest in dreams? Sometimes I see monks and nuns in my dreams, sometimes I see myself as a monk in my dreams, sometimes I see myself as not a monk in my dreams – woah, what's happening? – sometimes I feel like a monk but I'm not in robes, so... I have to say there's a heated debate about robes. Especially among westerners. Should I wear robes when I go back home? I always say, if you can, do. But I know there are situations where it's very difficult. One's family – it's very difficult. One's work situation if one has to work – it's very difficult. One monk from South America said he might be beaten!! At one point when I was working too, sure I was wearing burgundy nursing scrubs, and then at one point I wore the skirt, but then I wore the scrubs on top. So it was like a compromise. People know, "oh, what's up?" Something's different. And at the very least... which is very important, it's not the least, but... it's a reminder. "Yes, I am a representative of the order of Shakyamuni Buddha, and what I do will affect others, for benefit or for harm." I want to be of benefit, that's why I took robes. Mahayana motivation for becoming ordained, I'm taking vows to restrain myself from harm for the benefit of my own mind, but also it will help others... yes, also I want to help others. Even the small things. People make a connection with the Buddha through seeing the robes. When I see some Hindus when I'm traveling in India, they're very respectful to the Buddha, and it shows when they pay respect to a monk. It's not me, it's the vows on this mindstream, and these robes represent the vows on this mindstream.

And there are those who wear robes, and they are not monks and nuns. This happens, too, and this is a problem. But, I too sing the praises of wearing robes for monks and nuns, and personally I feel most at home and most comfortable in robes. It's not... I only notice their funkiness when other people go, "Woah, funky," or call me name like "faggot" and things like this when I'm in the West. And it's a privilege, too, because abuse can be very helpful for strengthening my mind. So yeah, I'm most at home... maybe I've spent a lot of time in robes, because it feels like an old shoe – very comfortable.

Two questions come out of this. The first one... you mentioned some people wear robes when they're not monks and nuns, I was just curious what you refer to.

If you look at history, people who have fought with guns and wear robes, I was just saying... this is a person who is not a monk or a nun. Why? A monk or nun is someone who takes vows, mainly of non-harm. If one harms even a small being, it's questionable whether one is seriously, genuinely, a monk or a nun. There are people who have broken their vows, and I don't know... I mean, I know of some people, and not just in this tradition, but you could say in... perhaps I could be as bold to say in every tradition people don't keep their vows and wear robes. I heard of one monk (I won't say where or who or what) who said that, "These [robes] are power, I would never give them up even though I've got four wives…" or something like this… So this is a possibility, you know, one could be wearing the robes as truly just a costume. And, you know, sometimes I think of these kids who... they don't necessarily have vinaya vows, but they have this rabjung or they have some form of vows, maybe, I don't know how it works exactly. But these young monks... there are these movies about monks running off to see soccer games. And it's sort of like, someone could say, "Oh, that's cute, but they're young, they don't know why they're monks." But it's a good seed on the mind. I want to be a young monk running around next time, myself. I make prayers for this...

I want to be a monk as soon as possible in my next life. And I think there are benefits to that, but one can go two ways. It's like, for example, when monks to go the West. Some develop stronger renunciation. I've heard of some who say "get me back to India." I feel really good when I hear that. And some stay, and they really develop stronger renunciation and stronger wish to help others, and they do. That's great. And many go because they don't want to be monks to begin with, they don't have the renunciation and they give up their robes and they have a family or whatever. And that's... well you know there's two ways of looking at that. One is, that's the life that they're ready for, that's the kind of life that they want, and that's the kind of life that they need. But on the other hand, like again... if they had a more stable connection with their environment, a more stable connection with their teacher, this would not happen, they would not have left, and maybe they would have developed some realizations that would benefit sentient beings. And then there are those who go, and then they go, "Wow, this is the pure land." And then they throw their robes off. So there are so many scenarios.

So the question was... those who wear robes who are not monks and nuns... also one can say, who is a monk? This is in the Dhamapadda (sayings of the Buddha). "Who is a monk? A monk is someone who has quenched desire." So in that way I'm not a monk. But I'm someone who wants to. So it's like, "wannabe monk..." but that's a very high definition of a monk. But maybe you can say, truly a monk. Or maybe even... yeah, it says it in the scriptures, so there must... there's something to it. So like, growing into being a genuine, authentic representative of the Buddha.

My second question that came out of what you were saying previously... you'd mentioned that wearing the robes, especially going back to the West where people have all sorts of impressions and interpretations of what these...

Hare Krishna! [laughs]... then I say "Namo Buddha!"

Yeah, and that's probably one of the kinder misinterpretations.

Yes it is.

If you had, you know, if had the opportunity to make, just kind of a general statement to members of the lay community of the West, who we could kindly say are, you know, clueless in the sense that they just don't know, what would you want to say? You know, if you had a chance like...

Lay Buddhist community? Or both?

No... just the, non-Buddhists, people who really don't know what this means...

I would say, "Ask." It's like a disabled person. Disabled people always tell me, "I wish people would just come and talk to me." Now I'm getting all emotional. Because... being a monastic and being a disabled person is quite a different scenario, but I see a relationship…disabled people tell me "I wish people would come and talk to me and ask me, "So, what's it like?" or, "Tell me, what is your experience?" It's the same for a monastic. And it's great... it's so open and so fresh... "What's up?" "Oh, I'm a Buddhist monk." "Oh! What's that?"

The mind of curiosity is so fresh and so clean, and it's so nice, and it's so beneficial to one's own mind, because one can learn, rather than going... like I mentioned someone called me a faggot. Immediately, because I'm wearing a skirt, I must be a homosexual. There's this big fear of homosexuality in the West. I was heavily engaged in homophobia myself. It's typical... the mind that stereotypes, the mind that judges right away, the mind that criticizes right away. And I feel sad actually. It's a privilege on the one hand because I get to know, what does it feel like... to be a disabled person? In a way it's like being a freak, because, why? Because people look.

Disabled people, often... I've worked with them a lot, and I lived with someone for awhile, a person who had a brain injury... and they've told me a lot that there experience is that people look, and it's like being a freak in a zoo. And also, just being a white person in India is like being a freak in the zoo. The kids gather around and go, "Woah, who's the alien that just landed? I've never seen a white person." I'm getting used to it, and I'm getting used to being a person in robes in the West. I'll tell you this -- this is something that really saddens me -- many western sangha tell me that the fact that people look at them when they go back to the West is enough for them to not want to be a monk or a nun. This is one of the saddest things I've ever heard.

So I would say have courage, have faith... now I'm talking to monks and nuns again... because one gets used to it, and imagine what it's like for the other person. So I think from both sides... the person looking at a monk or a nun or the monk or a nun being looked at. Imagine always what it's like to be the other person. The person doesn't know. The person is ignorant, in general, particularly ignorant of clergy. Not so many clergy walking around... every clergy is a freak in the West, really. Here in India, sometimes, still like a freak. Still people don't know in India, which shocks me, but there's sometimes more understanding because you see Jain monks and nuns walking around. You see naked monks walking around. You see swamis walking around. You see sanyasis, you see sadhu babas you see tantrikas walking around. So sometimes there's a little more understanding. Not of just understanding, but respect... it's quite different. But in the West... and sometimes this happens, too. If somebody... I remember... I'll never forget, there's a native guy, a native North American asked me, "Hey man! Like, what's up with you?" And I was just on my way to the airport to go to India...

Whey you say native North American, do you mean, Native American native, or just like...

A Canadian native aboriginal. And he said this, "What's up?" And I said I'm a Buddhist monk. And he said, "That is so cool, what does that mean?" I said, "Well, I follow Shakyamuni Buddha, who is an Indian. I live in Canada, but I'm moving to India, which is the home of this religion. And the religion is basically one of cultivating love for all beings and not harming anybody." "So does that mean, like if I beat you up, you wouldn't do anything?" I said, "Well... yeah." And he was deeply moved. I'll never forget this interchange because he was just so darn curious, just like a small child. That's the sort of mind, I think, we all have to have.

So when people are looking at me, to imagine... humm, I would do the same if I were them. Or, if they were me, they would do the same. I would do the same. I would look. I look... I saw some naked monks, I saw Digambara Jain monks, I was like, wow! You know I was so interested in all these religions, I thought, I could be a swami, I could be a Jain monk, I could be a Hindu monk, I could be a this, I could be a rabbi, I could be a Christian... oh for sure, I could be any of these... really like, what you'd call a serious practitioner regardless of faith tradition...someone who's really said, "I'm going to commit to practicing this religion, full on." So when I saw these naked monks, I was like, "I've finally seen these Jain naked monks!" I was so curious, I was looking... not because they were naked, actually it was quite interesting that fact that they do spend their life naked. "Skyclad," they're called. But just wow, another religious person. Very inspiring. So I, too, look as if they're a freak in the zoo. But not a freak in the zoo, I guess it depends on the intention. So I guess a good way of doing it is seeing the other person's intention as pure, even if one doesn't know.

Someone once told His Holiness, "You know, their intention isn't pure. They're not doing this because they're a nice person. They don't have a good intention." And His Holiness said, "I don't care what their intention is." So likewise, if I see that the other person's intention is pure... even if they slander me. One person walked by me and said very awful things about His Holiness the Dalai Lama, I think... "they still made contact with me." It's like the kid who wants to be hit by the father. It's still some form of contact. They still made contact with me, they still made contact with His Holiness the Dalai Lama... Devadatta, the Buddha's... was it Buddha's cousin?... was very negative towards him... I'm sure he's a Buddha by now, even though he tried to destroy the Buddha's teachings and the Buddha's body. So any connection with the Buddha in some way, small way, even a negative way is beneficial, can be beneficial. So this is a way to transform it. So what I say to people who see monks and nuns... Yeah, just be curious. I think everyone at all times should just be curious. "Humm... I wonder…" it's a good state of mind to be in, open, refreshing.

I don't want to take too much more of your time. The last question that I would have... and you can take it in any direction you want to, if you have an answer to it or if you want to say something completely different, that's fine, too...

First, even in Buddhism there needs to be more 'interfaith'. A few times we would meet in Toronto, in Canada, as a city-wide Buddhist community. It's so wonderful, because we all have the same teacher. WE style="mso-spacerun: yes" to I the we a gap. Why is there a gap? We are a family. So likewise with the whole world, we are a human family. I think... I feel... I know that interfaith dialogues and interfaith events and interfaith practice... meditation together... "what do you think of our scriptures?... you know what I think of your scriptures?" I mean, I do this every day. With the intention of learning, benefiting, being closer... has limitless benefits. I think it's a prototype of a world that will be a peaceful one, a united one, a wholesome and strongly beneficial one for everything. For everyone, every being, the environment, all existence. The prototype is the religious traditions. Individually, practicing them well within ourselves. Communally, as religious traditions we need to come closer together by doing various things. Let's brainstorm, I say, let's get together and brainstorm. How can we do this? One brainstorming session happened here – the rabbis got together with His Holiness. His Holiness said, "How can we have a strong diaspora community in exile from our homeland?" The Jews told him "this is what we've done, this is how we've survived for so long." And the Jews asked His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, "How can we meditate? How can we see more of the richness in our own tradition?" This sort of thing needs to happen. That happened here... the Jews offered their Passover sader to the Tibetans and said "here is something that we have, that we want to give to you, that we do once a year, as a diaspora community, to help our diaspora community all do something together at once, one time a year, and remember, so that we don't suffer the same way in the past." And the Holocaust memorial happens once a year.

So these things... maybe there's a World Prayer Day... these things, they're catching on but they're not looked upon so kindly... even I look, when I see World Prayer Day I think of new age-y, crystal rubbing, some of my negativity comes up... but I think this is not right. I think some of these things, they need to be embraced as things we do together, maybe on the same day, or... it becomes superficial sometimes, like "every day should be earth day" is true but can be an excuse to take away from the significance and power of designated days, but maybe... let's brainstorm I say. Let's get together and hash it out... let's talk about peace. We were doing this in Toronto once a year, an Interfaith Universal Peace Festival, it's a brainstorming session. How can we get together as people, how can we get together as religious practitioners, how can we as religious practitioners inspire the rest of the people to engage in some activities that will help bring peace quicker to our world? And spending more time together... dialogue. His Holiness is big on this, too, he's always saying, dialogue, dialogue. So as religious practitioners within our own tradition even, and within our own faith, and with other faiths need to come together and ask, "So, what's it like?" And be willing to share from our side, "This is what it's like from my side."

And maybe… now I'm going to be a bit daring... maybe bring up some of the inner-crap... I just brought up one of mine... I have a big stereotype when I see things... like when I hear of "World Peace Day" or "Earth Day," I get this funky "airy-fairy" sort of feeling. But I need to look at that, I need to consider... is that reasonable? I don't think so, I think it's being a little bit harsh, I think it's being a little bit critical, and I need to get in touch with a more wholesome state of mind like... "wow this is something that, I should celebrate this, too. How can I celebrate this? Well, I'll celebrate or partake of it in my own way." There was some group on the email list, I kept getting these messages that say, World Puja, and some of these things were like, "We're all getting together to pray!" I sometimes felt like... "so cheesy," but you know what, it's not. Really... we need to do more of this. And this is why the people who come up with these ideas are brave because they say "Let's have a peace concert! Let's have people come together and pray!" and they really get a lot of resistance. I've met some of them, and I've done some of these events myself... they really struggle because people just immediately write them off. So... if we think of some of these things that we can do... bottom line to bring each other, and bring everybody closer together.

And more constructive activities. Yeah, here we go again... His Holiness is always saying this, I'm going to say it again: We're spending too much money on how we can harm each other. We need to spend more money on how we can bring each other closer. Sure there's technology that's being misused. There's technology that's being used well. How can we use this to bring people closer together so that they can be fed, so that they can be clothed, so that they can be happy, so that they can have more affection in their lives. So, yeah, how can we bring more affection into people's lives? Let's brainstorm. Let's come up with some ideas and let's try them out. So we'll see what happens. Yeah the future's wide open, and they say we're spiraling down into a pit of fire, the world's going to burn up in an apocalypse. I don't know, I see... the nun in Toronto had a wonderful vision and that was all of us sitting on a field, and the field is very deep, you know, there's a merit field, a field of awareness, we're all in one big field. Or just like... just space, meditating together, at peace. What a wonderful vision. And I see this, too, you know. Sure there's going to be a fire, but it's not going to end there. Let's look towards a bright future together, doing all these things that are wonderful. Yeah, holding hands in a circle, singing, saying "om," sure, hugging a bit. There are many different things. Praying together, meditating together, studying together, walking together... doing more things together with the motivation to support each other in our attempt to make each of our minds more peaceful, to come closer (or see how close we already are) as a human family and provide a model for other groups to do the same. I am not talking about doing this on the premise of religion…just on the basis of being part of the same world. THIS style="mso-spacerun: yes" is conflict. Let's try it all out because, you know... all of these little things I feel is just a drop. And with many, many drops we're going to have a calm ocean of awareness together. That's what I see, and that's what I want.

Amen, I second that, wholeheartedly.

Let's make it happen.

So is there anything else, anything else you want to say, or...

Not too much. Just... people need more affection. How can we meet that need? People... when I say "people," I also mean bugs and dogs and fish... every being needs more affection, and how can we... how can we do this? There's so many ways. It's just one way... okay I'm not going to harm beings, and then now what? [laughs] Now what? How can we bring more affection into our own life, and have enough that we can try to spread it around a bit. Find some hope. I think in affection there's hope. I see it... when a dog gets a little bit of affection, they have some hope..."maybe I'll get more, and maybe there's a reason to live." That's what I see in their eyes when they get some affection. They're like... "there's a reason to live! There's hope! It's not desperate, and I'm not a lost nobody." That's the worst hell realm, I think. There is apparently a hell realm where one doesn't see anybody for countless eons. This is the worst hell. So we need to let people know, "yes I am another being here with you. We're all struggling, but here we are together struggling together. Here's a little bit of whatever I've got." That's all I have to say. More affection to more people... how can we do this? So, it's an open question.

Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you. It's always a great opportunity to process, to learn, to brainstorm. I always come out refreshed and energized... [End tape]